Should I ED1 to Pomona College? [Neuroscience/Cognitive Sci, Research, Pre-Med & Arts balance; 3.975 UW GPA, 1480 SAT, CA resident]

College Search & Lists
, , ,
21

Hard to resist the urge to pile on for Wesleyan :slight_smile: but my son is taking Experimental Music at Wes this semester (another Wes course created by a well-known professor who has since passed away) and loving it. He’s going to resume his drum lessons next semester, too, and has already joined a club that puts on rock shows. I looked quickly and there is a vocal jazz teacher at Wes that the OP could reach out to if interested in learning more.

Giancomo Gates

Agree that OP should visit and do the numbers and all of that—and add more LACs if that’s where they want to be.

2 Likes
22

You talk about using the “ED card” which is generally seen as giving a boost in admission. But you might want to consider a loose parallel from the concept known as the “winner’s curse”. In economics the person winning an auction paid more than anyone else thought the item was worth.

If you get into a college that would have turned you down otherwise, have you really won? If you assume admission is the hurdle but once enrolled everyone benefits equally, then sure. But if you’ve landed in a den of extremely smart and motivated students that you would not have ended up in otherwise, you may draw a different conclusion.

2 Likes
23

I have occasionally argued, and consistently thought, that premed students might be better off at a university where they walk in as a student in the top 1/4 of the incoming class, rather than as a student in the bottom 1/4 of the incoming class. To me this makes a safety look like it might be a great choice for a premed student.

The main value of all of that hard work in high school is to be very ready to do well in the tough university classes. You don’t have to be premed for this to be true, particularly if you are in a major that overlaps with premed classes (or engineering classes, but that is a different discussion).

4 Likes
24

OP hasn’t been back since starting the thread.

2 Likes
25

Definitely premeds, but really in general, I think the idea of going to the most selective college that will just barely admit you is pretty suspect. Of course some people count as top quarter (or higher) academic prospects anywhere. But most kids with some “luck” might be able to get admitted somewhere they are if anything a bit below the average entering academic ability . . . and I agree that might turn out more bad luck than good luck in retrospect.

I note this might always have been the case somewhat, but it does feel to me like more and more over time, recruiting timelines and such are starting earlier and earlier. I don’t see this as a great development, but the bottom line is I think back when I went to college, most kids had more time to pivot and recover from a not so great start to college. So these days, I think you really are well-advised to be thinking in terms of a relatively strong start.

Anyway, just some things for the OP to maybe keep in mind.

2 Likes
26

For the few schools that publish student profiles, it seems being in state (I have data from publics) is most important and then maybe being a minority or female or another hook - just glancing at the data some publish. Not sure if there’s any truth to it.

But lots of WKU at UK. Guessing other than Louisville, there’s not a lot of WKU at other med schools…some but not a lot.

27

Hi everyone, thank you so much for all your replies and questions! Here’s more about my stats, activities, and what I’m looking for.

APs (10 total):

  • Completed: AP Psychology (5), AP Language (5), APUSH (5), AP World (4), APES (4)
  • Currently taking: AP Biology, AP Literature, AP Economics, AP Government, AP Calculus
  • I’m also a TA for AP Psychology this year.

GPA: 4.35 weighted, 3.975 unweighted

ECs:

  • Music: classical voice training at an arts high school, plus jazz voice. 2nd place in an international vocal competition, and I’ve level 10 evaluation for voice CM program
  • Neuroscience research: I am finishing a research proposal on the neurological circuit related to a psychiatric illness with a mentor
  • Summer programs: Rosetta Institute neuroscience program at UCSD and a neuroscience lecture program
  • Music and neuroscience outreach: intern helping develop a student program that brings music to senior and Alzheimer’s communities
  • Mental health advocacy: Community Outreach Coordinator for my school’s mental health awareness club; organized guest speaker and a collaboration event
  • Other: peer French tutor (2 years), volunteer choir vocal coach, and community volunteering

Additional info

  • Cost: moderately important. I’ll likely apply for need-based aid and scholarships.
  • Location: I’m from California but open to going farther, and I’m fine with cold, snowy winters.
  • Campus/city vibe: very important. I do best in a lively environment where there’s always something going on.
  • Opportunities: strong internship and research access. I’m interested in neurorehabilitation or another well-paying neuroscience-related career.
  • Music: I’m happy to take voice lessons as a non-major.

I’ve visited Pomona once. I’m still looking to add more strong options, especially targets and safeties, so I’d love any suggestions!

28

You really need to add more info:

  1. What’s your budget and how does the NPC at Pomona or anywhere compare? Have your parents run it? This year Pomona was $96K a year. What if with need aid, it’s $50K but your parents are giving you $30K. So you need to know the actual budget vs. just making generic statements.

I put the Pomona Net Price Calculator below. Have your folks (not you) fill it out and see how it aligns with your budget. Outside scholarships are unlikely and/or going to be in very small amounts and sometimes just one time.

  1. Most every campus has strong research access. Internship opportunities will be up to you, not the school. My daughter, for example, went to a regional public but interned for our state and a top think tank in DC. That’s her hustle, not the school. Internships are often in the summer so where you go will matter less.

  2. I’m not a voice parent but I believe many schools don’t allow non music students. But those that do, there might be a fee - so you have to budget for that.

I mentioned Rochester above - but I’m not sure the lively vibe is there. But I could say the same about Pomona quite honestly.

So when you build a list, you build it based on budget, not name. You have wonderful names. But can you afford them. It’s the same as Pomona - will the schools that have no merit aid, which is all (Rice, Wash U, USC have little) - can you afford them.

U Mich is $80K+ and it goes up $4K or so the last two years. Figure you don’t get aid OOS or little. A cheaper U Mich with a great music school is Indiana. You can take private lessons ($$). If you have significant need ,UNC and UVA are the only two public schools in the country that meet need (run the NPCs) but W&M and Wisconsin also appear to offer significant need aid.

So you really need a budget - and have to include private lessons so find a school less expensive if they charge. Talk to your parents - and until you know how that fits, an absolute no to ED anywhere.

So get us a # and we can get you some matches and safeties. The beautiful thing is you have great stats - if your budget is low but the NPC doesn’t agree, you can get into tons of lower cost schools with fantastic merit - it may be Hofstra instead of Harvard but it will be affordable.

You saw from my charts above - the where is likely to matter little for med school.

Great profile but we need to make sure your list is built around your budget - and other factors.

Thanks

Welcome | Net Price Calculator

29

I updated your title to reflect this. Thanks.

30

Hi, I’ve just calculated my net price and it’s about 68000 which I’ve speak to my parents and they are ok with it as long as they said I make something meaningful out of my education and help me achieve a good career.

2 Likes
31

Two things:

  1. They, not you, need to calculate. You likely don’t have access to all of their investment files. It’s not just a question of what they earn. And each school will have a different cost. Please have them fill it out.

  2. There are kids who achieve a good career and those that don’t - whether it’s Stanford or Cal State San Bernardino. In the end, that will be up to you.

If Pomona is your top choice, and you might look at an events calendar because I don’t believe the lively area is that school - but if it is and you want to ED (you don’t need to), then it’s great. But have you factored in the music lessons costs - I imagine they will be pricey - so it’s $68K + that.

I would remove UM. You can sub in Indiana U. Indiana is similar (much less selective and less reputed but a similar type school) and similarly reputed in music. It’s a safety for you.

You would need to have your parents (not you) run the NPCs for Barnard, Yale, U Penn, Wash U, Northwestern, USC, Stanford and Rice - unless $100K a year is ok for them (+ lessons - which I don’t know what they cost but won’t be cheap).

I would look to find schools - whether a Case Western, U of Cincinnati, Rochester, Western Michigan, Temple, Belmont or more - that offer experts in jazz voice, etc.

You aren’t going to find that everywhere.

In regards to all the things you think - research, med school prep or great career, you have a great list if you can afford it - but they are names and they all don’t meet your desires like maybe a Pitt or College of Charleston (only because it’s downtown so there’s always stuff happening), Florida State, UGA, U Miami, UCLA - honestly, you sound to me, like a bigger school person - but again, you have a niche of your performing arts - and you’ll either have to let lessons go or do further research, in my opinion, to find the schools that meet your need.

Personally, I don’t see that as a Pomona - but I also think you are putting way too much emphasis on a school will make me successful (it won’t but you will).

If you were my child, I would reach out to a school, like U Rochester, and find out - how much lessons cost and figure out the annual cost. Your parents could afford $68K but what if it were $88K with lessons, could they? Find the breaking point. If you find out lessons are $20K a year or $30K a year - then you can drop your budget by that much, etc.

I think you need to do more research.

You might also visit campuses near home that are large - to get a feel. Check out the activity on the quad. Look at club lists online - how active are they, etc.

And the music program - that you need to dig more into.

That’s just what I think - you are premature a bit and yes, your list is a bit over the top name wise.

Hope that helps.

32

Just want to add a word of encouragement. I think you’re showing a lot of maturity in handling these matters - in cooperation with your parents. This used to be par for the course in olden days and a lot schools look for just this type of independence and initiative. IMO, if Pomona is your “tent pole” school, there lots of ways to find matches and perhaps even a safety or two that save money. But that’s a family decision.

5 Likes
33

Agreed

34

Hi! Thank you for updating my thread title. Could you also edit two of my posts from today? I’d like to remove a few keydetails.

1. In my post with my APs and ECs, please delete the ECs section entirely.

2. In my post about Pomona’s net price, please replace the dollar amount with:

“Pomona’s net price calculator shows we’d qualify for some financial aid, and my parents are comfortable with the cost.”

Thank you so much for your help!

1 Like
35

No one will tell you not to ED to Pomona if that’s what the question is, if you believe it meets your criteria that you listed in the updated desires email.

Statistically you are certainly in range.

This is from Rochester because Pomona’s lesson link was dead. But it looks like private lessons are reasonable, much less than I would have thought. I assume they are private.

It won’t populate but here’s the link. Good luck.

36

No one can edit your posts…except you. Go to the post. At the bottom, there is a little grey pencil. Click on that…Your post will come up in a text box and you will be able to edit it.

37

All the colleges you listed should also have strong music programs. However given my username, I saw a listing from DownBeat a couple years back, on where to study Jazz in the US. It’s by regions and alphabetical, so not really a ranking. Anyway, I would consider adding UCLA if you don’t get into Pomona ED. That’s a world-class music school.

1 Like
38

I think UCLA is great but another reach.

What would work for OP that isn’t a reach? Because the university is safe (and U Mich is well over $80K), I suggested IU as a sub. It appears a non major can still take lessons - not sure what OP is seeking. I read before top jazz programs are U of Cincy (but it’s a conservatory, so not sure if non students can take classes), IU Jacobs, Bard can be another (that’s safer), Miami, SMU would be a safe academic school for admission, Belmont is very safe, W Michigan and more. I realize the OP doesn’t want to hear W Michigan - but they have the music side.

If one can take lessons, SMU ,Miami, Indiana, and Bard might be great additions that are still great schools but a bit less selective than your list. Indiana is below $68K. Miami and Bard both meet need so the NPC can be run. SMU does offer merit aid up to $30K a year.

Here’s another “list” of schools focused on Jazz vocal.

Best Colleges for Vocal Performance: Classical, Jazz, Contemporary

39

So I’ll respond to a few things from above as I have kids at UCLA and Pomona. It’s hard to get into the high level UCLA music classes and labs to do research at UCLA. That’s an inherent problem at a large public with a very selective arts program and lots of grad students. It is possible and common enough, but you definitely have to hustle to get lab research and the music classes have limited space with priority for those in the major. The price and available opportunities, however, are hard to beat for a Cal resident.

It’s easier to get research opportunities at Pomona and the 5Cs. There are no grad students and profs are usually looking for student help even from students at other 5C schools not their own. You often can get paid and Pomona is generous in this regard. The classes are small and its easier to find community quickly at Pomona v. UCLA. Pomona ranks really highly for med school admissions (my daughter isn’t premed) as the advising is supposedly really good and given the close contact to profs, getting a strong and personal LOR is much easier. However, it’s really expensive. If you have to pay for 4 more years of med school, you should seriously consider cheaper alternatives including all of the UCs. I suspect going to a small LAC will make the med school path easier than a large flagship, but I think the vast majority of strong candidates would’ve made at either place - they just might have to hustle more.

I second a place like Indiana. We have a friend’s daughter got a merit scholarship for Kelley that made it about $10k more than a UC for her and there were many appealing things about it. It’s still a large public but perhaps it has the music opportunities there for you that would be more limited at UCLA. More knowledgeable people like Tsbna44 can provide better advice on other schools that fit your criteria.

One last thing I’ll say about Pomona is applying ED doesn’t give you much of an advantage if you look at the ED stats compared to other LACs and strip out about the 25-35% of ED admits who were recruited athletes or other institutional priorities. If you apply there ED, do so because you love and can afford it - not because you think you’ll gain a strategic advantage.

40

I definitely think OP needs to, at any school, if they are a non-major, inquire about the opportunities they seek. OP might ask admissions for some department meetings, so they can talk to both a pre health advisor and someone in the music program to find out - what type of opportunities are there for non-majors and how will I fit in with the rigor of my pre-med requirements. I wouldn’t say I’m an expert but I do think students need to advocate for what they desire and not just assume.

Most admissions teams will jump through hoops for students and even if they’re unable, will give you the names to contact to set things up on their own. This can all be done virtually.

I’m not sure that going to a high end LAC matters for med school. If you go to post 17, I put the colleges attended of two med schools. Additionally, Vanderbilt posts their med school results from 2021-23, and when you see the success or lack there of for graduates, I’m not sure any school helps vs. the student (test score, shadowing, etc.). I put them below.

The sum of the first three columns is the denominator. The right column is the numerator.

Pomona does show up #17 on the top feeder list, per capita. But the question always is, is it the school or is the caliber of the student at the school? Top kids going into college will obviously be top kids after college. But they might have excellent advising as well.

One last suggestion vs. those above - Wofford College is a great LAC, has merit, music (not sure about jazz) - but has a shadowing program they help arrange during the January interim term. It might make getting the necessary shadowing a bit easier.

“All qualified students are strongly encouraged to participate in Wofford’s clinical internship program during the January Interim. This program involves the participation of hospitals and health care professionals who offer Wofford students shadowing experience in all aspects of health care.”

image
image1199×943 280 KB

Clinical Internships & Shadowing at Wofford (Student-Friendly Guide) – Career Center in the Mungo Exchange | Wofford College