Singaporean connection

screwitlah · June 26, 2009, 12:22am

And remember, BrilliantMinds, the truth is: don’t worry about what you can’t change, but work on what you CAN change. SAT scores are one such factor that you can change. I believe you do have the passion to be a physicist, and if you decide that going to the US is your best chance at making your dream come true, I want you to succeed. You are not a “pathetic” student or applicant. Your profile is what you make of it, and the beauty of this process is that for the most part, you are judged based on that profile.

hbrad8002 · June 26, 2009, 12:51am

what Screwitlah said may be applicable to the hypms, but not to lower schools, i guess
i got 780 for chem, and 790 for maths2
and i’m not gonna retake, because i’m not gonna apply to those hypms :D

but an advice for brilliantminds, if you wanna get those 10points, make sure you can get it the next time, because there are some people who constantly got 790 after 3 tests. although schools always say they only consider the highest of each test (and they do really), but to a certain extent, it still reflects your desperation about scores

also, there should be a reason there are still people who got crappy SAT scores but still got in the HYPMS. because they’re good at other stuffs (ECs, rec letters, grades, essays…) So, know your strengths and weaknesses… If your other things are quite fantastic then I think it would fine to forget those 10pts… but if SATs are your best advantage, then to retake is reasonable :)

screwitlah · June 26, 2009, 1:06am

Firstly the vast majority of born-and-bred Singaporeans who get into HYPSM can get 800 with their eyes closed, and they do (not sure if their eyes were actually closed though). In fact, I know of nobody from HYPSM (those who took science SATs at least) that did not get 800s for SAT subject tests, or at least 790. Even if a few get into top schools without pure 800s in their SAT IIs, do you really wanna aim to be the exception? I don’t know why the simple logic is often lost on people.

And UC Berkeley, his dream school, is known to heavily emphasize on scores.

Hermann · June 26, 2009, 5:29am

what subjects are considered useless for SAT2’s? im only going to take chemistry and maths for the science side (no physics at last!) when i go overseas, and i know that some universities require 3, so would it make sense if i like take chinese SAT’s although i’ve looked at the papers and it seems like primary school chinese(no offence!)…lols

yourxlover · June 26, 2009, 5:36am

@screwitlah
awsm breakdown of argument there um it puts things in perspective a lot? BUT THAT MEANS I AM ESSENTIALLY PRETTY DEAD MEAT (ie took the test a second time&got 2080, and i have t take SAT I AND II in oct/nov/dec)

@hermann
i don’t think they care what you take for SAT II; i’m half in mind to take chinese too. but i think i’m taking math 2 and lit. D:

Hermann · June 26, 2009, 5:45am

^
i heard it looks pretty ridiculous sometimes if you take your SAT’s countlessly (more than 3 i heard?), so you better prepare…although im not sure whether it is true or not…

1234d · June 26, 2009, 5:56am

yourxlover: it really depends on the quality of schools you are looking at and the non-SAT parts of your profile. SATs are damn important, no matter how you look at it.

and eh, taking Chinese is really pointless. plus, you’d better have a good explanation if you don’t get 800.

Agneisse · June 26, 2009, 8:27am

The only SAT II you shouldn’t touch is Maths I. Go ahead and take Chinese, but definitely get 800 - the language SAT IIs are notoriously pilfered by native speakers for ‘free 800s’, so it’s the carelessness that will cost you, not any difficulty (not saying you are careless, but you know). It’s also rumoured that taking a ‘contrasting subject’ is important so do consider Literature or if you’re good at cramming, at World or US History where the curves are generous. Oh if you go to Berkeley an okay score on US History gets you out of some requirement (not a reason to specifically choose this subject, of course).

I’ve also heard the story that taking the SAT more than 3 times without significant improvement starts to backfire on you. But if you do well in this session it should be fine.

Hermann · June 26, 2009, 9:38am

why shouldnt you touch maths I? i have no idea since i’ve yet to take it/even see the paper in my dreams yet…

1234d · June 26, 2009, 10:19am

most people find math II a breeze so there’s no point in taking an easier math subject? I still think taking SAT chinese is a waste of time. The admission officers are probably smart enough to know that O Level or A Level Chinese is much more challenging than that.

confused_vnese · June 26, 2009, 10:41am

Screwitlah, you seem too concerned about getting 800s for SAT IIs. The impression i got is that SAT IIs are ridiculous, and many people seem to think so too. They’re easy, muggable and don’t mean a thing when it comes to college placement. APs (and A level grades, to some extent) are more meaningful in showing colleges your knowledge of the subjects. Are we, the kids who got ~750 for our subject tests, any less capable as students in admission officers’ eyes than you are just because we fell short of getting an 800? There are plenty of 800 SAT II scorers who got rejected, and vice versa (and I know these people). I believe in trying to raise your SAT I score. Any 10 points help. But i can’t and won’t say the same thing about SAT II scores.

I made a choice not to even revise for SAT II, but maintain decent grades in school (A & B for Prelims and Promo, As predicted) which IMO are more impt because colleges will actually use your A level grades to grant you advanced standing. I have no interest in doing sciences in college, so why must i waste my time? I recall you saying that you’re an arts students taking science SAT IIs (with no intention to pursue a science degree i presume), and my advice for you is anything from 720 is fine.

So, make your own decision. Bust your ass studying to get 30 points more and break that 800 benchmark, or be like this Vietnamese girl who chose to spent her time on things that are more meaningful.

FYI, I know for a fact that i was evaluated against Singaporeans by the admission officer in charge of Singapore (for HYP at least). Was i ‘directly competing’ with Singaporeans? I have my own theory, but i leave you to make yours. International admission is pretty much a mystery.

confused_vnese · June 26, 2009, 10:43am

Math I covers simpler topics, but is harder to score because the curve is tougher. 1 mistake and your 800 is gone IIRC. You’re allowed a few mistakes in the SAT II and still get 800.

Theoretically, you can take Math 1 & 2 and have them counted as 2 subjects, but its not advisable for science/math major hopefuls (well duh!). I think Harvard specifically asks you not to submit 2 Maths.

Nadash · June 26, 2009, 10:44am

There are different levels of 2250: a 750/750/750 is wildly different from a 800/800/650. I will not say that a 750 is treated as an 800, I am saying that they have both proven that they can probably succeed academically (range depending on subject). 750 just doesn’t have the ring of an 800. However, if your A-level results were average, a dazzling SAT score may help. The admission officers would be less inclined to give you, as screwitlah phrased it, the benefit of doubt. This is rather dependent on the individual circumstance.

Taking a leap out there, I would think that state schools, and schools like Wustl, focus more on statistics like the SATs, while HYPMS take a more holistic approach. HYPMS admittees’ multiple 800s do not imply causation. Their brilliance, required to attain a necessarily high level of extra-curricular success, also lead to a high SAT score. For the elite colleges, SATs play an horribly small part in admissions. A few points aren’t going to tip any balances.

Regarding super-scoring, I remember reading a featured discussion regarding collegeboard moving to automatically hiding previous SAT scores. Though it should not matter as most colleges practice super-scoring, several top colleges protested the move.

The process of determining how many potential points of improvement required before retaking isn’t a science. Personally, I will forget about your SAT IIs and focus on your writing. If you feel that taking the SAT IIs will not require much effort, and you have a few hundred bucks to spare, retake, by all means. Just don’t obsess over it. Screwitlah and I agree on a crucial point: that SATs play a marginal part. He just prefers to bet on it, while I would rather disregard it.

I am very bored by this discussion–it has been replayed over and over again in CC.

Anyway, regarding language tests: (The simple answer? No.)
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-subject-tests-preparation/551608-chinese-subject-test.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-subject-tests-preparation/551608-chinese-subject-test.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-act-tests-test-preparation/538552-help-korean-sat-ii-korean.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-act-tests-test-preparation/538552-help-korean-sat-ii-korean.html</a>

Additionally, I don’t think you should retake more than 3 times.

Now, can we talk about existentialism? How do you confront an absurd life?

Agneisse · June 26, 2009, 11:05am

Maths 1 is the baby version of Maths 2, which is a breeze if you’re at the JC stage. By taking M1 you waste a SAT 2 slot ($), get a harsher curve, risk scoffing for going for the ‘easier maths’, and if you take both M1 and M2 will very likely have to take another SAT II subject if you apply for a uni that wants 3 tests (because M1 is really a subset of M2) which wastes money and a SAT test date (and sleep on a Saturday).

BrilliantMinds · June 26, 2009, 11:06am

screwitlah: Thank you very much for believing in me, it is heartwarming to know that after such a long time (other than my bio teacher in sec sch), someone treats my aspirations and dreams seriously.

I have saved enough to buy an SAT I practice book, but which book do you think is most effective for Singaporeans? I dont want this SAT I to crush my hopes and dreams, I want to overcome it…and get into berkeley, that’ll be one of the best things in my life.

Which book should i buy? Any tips to study effectively (Im aiming 2200 on the next SAT I, my math can get 800, im aiming 700 for both critical reading and essay (i got 8 for essay this time).

1234d · June 26, 2009, 11:28am

^ I think the blue official book suffices. I did 4 practise tests there and thought it was quite useful - considering the lack of time. I think you should concentrate on getting a higher SAT I score now; no point worrying about SAT II when all your scores are in the 90+ percentile.

But do you know that Berkeley won’t keep your place for NS? So you must either 1. get a PSC OMS to disrupt NS or 2. apply to Berkeley next year or sth.

screwitlah · June 26, 2009, 11:43am

I’m not concerned with getting full marks for SATs. I’m concerned with attaining the baseline that everybody else attains so as to be in contention. If everybody got 750 for SAT tests, I would be more than happy to get a 750. Just what is necessary And you see plenty of people getting rejected with an 800, which precisely means it’s so easy and common that it should be a baseline for Singaporeans.

You may have been evaluated against Singaporeans, but what we, as born-and-bred Singaporeans, lack when compared to you make it harder for us: You 1) have an interesting, unique life history 2) came to SG by yourself (?) and studied here for years in a foreign land 3) grew up in a “less” English environment, which means you probably came here with a language handicap 4) adapted and overcame all that. It’s no secret that foreign students from Singapore JCs have a slightly easier time getting admitted to top colleges. From my JC batch itself I can think of at least 3 PRC scholars who got into Princeton with sub-2000/2100 SAT Is. Could you imagine a born-and-bred Singaporean getting into Princeton with those scores? I don’t think so - and it’s precisely because colleges have so many born-and-bred Singaporean applicants with 2200/2250 or better, and whose ECs are no less stellar, that these sub-2100 Singaporeans don’t stand a chance. So I would further subdivide applicants from Singapore into native and non-native applicants.

And also, you’ve contradicted yourself:

So what will it be? I think that if they’re so easy and muggable, you won’t have to “bust your ass” to get 30 points. Especially not when you’ve studied the same subjects for your A-levels for almost two years already, and at a far higher level than the useless SAT IIs.

I think it’s rather elitist to say that academic brilliance is a necessary feature of good leaders or active students. There are people I very much respect as leaders though they don’t have as much as a college degree in their gene pool.

[Princeton</a> University | Admission Statistics](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/]Princeton”>http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/)

28.1% of 2300-2400 scorers were admitted, and 10.6% of 2100-2290 scorers were admitted. Then you’re going to say that “800s do not imply causation. Their brilliance, required to attain a necessarily high level of extra-curricular success, also lead to a high SAT score,” which is patently untrue and elitist. There’s no reason to think that people who get higher SAT scores are better in their ECs. We all know those high SAT scorers who mug all day and aren’t active in school. I would even venture to say that the most active students consist mostly of those who get good, but not top results, because while they are undoubtedly brilliant, their various activities take priority over the time needed to mug their grades and scores to perfection. And even if what you said were true (and it’s not), how could it account for a huge 18% difference in admission rates between these two score groups?

No problem there. I like physics myself, but the thought of spending 8 or more years overseas to be an academic killed it for me. Anyway I’m not good enough to be a physicist in the first place And uh, definitely not at Princeton undergrad.

I’m unable to recommend you anything other than the blue book because that’s the only book I used. What I would recommend is to begin memorising a wordlist if you’re week at the vocab section on the Writing test. For the essay, they’re really not looking for a GP-type essay. Just a simple 5-paragraph essay, intro + 3 arguments&examples + conclusion would do. Critical Reading can be improved through timed practice and learning from your mistakes, but since there are precious few official practice tests available, you shouldn’t burn through them too quickly. I remember there’s a so-called Xiggi SAT method on CC which many here endorse, you should try looking in the SAT prep forum for that.

BrilliantMinds · June 26, 2009, 11:59am

i think you’re too humble. Any idea where the forum is? Im quite noob at this, pardon me. I think im applying to berkeley next year during my NS, but for now i want to focus on my A levels and SAT I first. Its hard studying for both A-lvl and SAT, cause GP and the sat arent really alike.

What bluebook were u referring to?

screwitlah · June 26, 2009, 12:09pm

here’s the xiggi thread: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-preparation/68210-xiggis-sat-prep-advice.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-preparation/68210-xiggis-sat-prep-advice.html</a>

I realised it is a classic - 4 years old and still going strong haha.

You won’t be able to miss the blue book. It’s the only official SAT practice book, a holy grail bestowed upon us by the very demigods CollegeBoard themselves. [Amazon.com:</a> The Official SAT Study Guide: The College Board: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Official-SAT-Study-Guide/dp/0874477182]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Official-SAT-Study-Guide/dp/0874477182)

I’m really not good enough to be a physicist, haha. I could mug for it at the A levels, and I find physics utterly fascinating, but actual seminal research is a whole different ball game altogether.

If you’re still in JC2 this year, it means you’ll enlist in 2010 and can only go to college in Fall 2012. Since Berkeley doesn’t grant deferments even for a year, you’ll have to apply to Berkeley end-2011, in the 2nd year of your NS.

frankchn · June 26, 2009, 12:13pm

^ The official SAT Study Guide by the College Board.

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