Would you send your daughters to Baylor?

Parents Forum
101

Not arguing the the rest of your post, but the investigation by the Tallahassee PD was hardly an investigation. The police office in charge worked FSU sporting events, and did not follow any of the proper procedures for this type of case and actively tried to bury it. He should have been fired with cause.

As for Baylor, their football program deserves the harshest penalties possible. Covering up what happened simply promoted more rapes and lawlessness, and ruined the lives of a great many people.

102

@SugarlessCandy “I’m all for investigating every incident at every college including Baylor but I don’t want to handle this widespread plague as a local infection. You are entitled to your opinion.”

To me the problem with this is that the widespread plague is really the sum total of all of the local infections. Just like a disease, you can only address it one person at a time. You can’t vaccinate the nation. You have to do it one person at a time.

Advice to girls:
When you go to parties, go as a group.
Don’t stay alone, if all your friends leave.
Don’t leave a friend there alone either. Don’t accept an opened drink.
Do drink so much that you are not in control.
If one of you has too much to drink, take care of one another.
If you suddenly do not feel well, talk about it immediately with friends.
Be aware of your surroundings. If you see something happening that doesn’t seem right step in. If you are too afraid to step in directly take pics or video. That can be a big deterrent.

Boys i:
No means no, but “yes” can mean no too if she is very drunk.
Passed-out means no. Nearly passed out means no.
If a girl is really drunk, don’t take that chance. If she is not an active participant, you may be over the line.
if you see another boy being inappropriate with a girl, you stepping in may save them both.
In the recent Vanderbilt case, I believe one student was sentenced to 15 years in prison. that is a very long time.

Boys II:
Be careful about taking pics of topless or nude drunk college women. If just one of them happens to be underage and you send that image to one person, you could find yourself up on serious charges of trafficking in child porn.The fact that you did no know the young ladies age is not relevant under the law, even if she lied about it. The person in possession of the pic is entirely responsible, and the minor is not able to give consent. Laws can vary by state so you may want to know the details.

103

@Zinhead

She told the cops she had been drugged. The cops did a toxicology report. Nothing. She then told the cops she had been hit in the head at the apartment. The cops found her social media posts before she left her dorm saying she wanted to meet a certain football player at the bar and found other social media posts wherein she referred to herself as a cleat chaser. Her social media trail continued the next morning where she bragged to her sorority friends about what she had done at the apartment. The cops showed her all that and asked her again if she had really been hit in the head.

Her story changed again.

The cops did investigate.

Much like the Duke Lacrosse Case what you heard in the media and what actually happened were two very different things.

And this was before the term “Fake News” was even coined.

Nothing I just said will change Cali’s narrative because he or she has chosen to ignore those facts. The Jameis Winston accuser was lying to the cops from the word go. She should have been charged with filing a false police report which is a crime but the Tally PD didn’t want to do that to protect her yet the Tally PD got a black eye over the incident anyway. She lied repeatedly to the cops. That doesn’t fit into the Campus Culture of rape. That is why you can’t use blanket analysis you have to look at the facts and circumstances of each case.

By the way, I think FSU settled also but the alleged crime didn’t even happen on campus so FSU caved in because FSU was tired of the media trashing them. FSU might or might not have handled the case fine under Title Whatever but like I said the incident didn’t even happen in FSU property. Jameis settled and paid some money too. I think women can be targeted and campus rape is a problem but in this case there was a lot more to it than what you assume or heard in the headlines.

104

@CaliCash Would you let your daughter attend Stanford? Even though the entire justice community failed to support a rape victim? Or would you be so blind by the “Oh my God my daughter got into Stanford isn’t she so wonderful … and smart … and special” mindset that you were willing to overlook it?

105

@GoNoles85 - Here is the FoxSports report that broke this story:

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/jameis-winston-florida-state-tallahassee-police-hindered-investigation-documents-101014

and a Deadspin followup.

http://deadspin.com/report-fsu-and-tallahassee-cops-obstructed-jameis-wins-1645045834

and the various New York Times stories:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/us/florida-state-football-casts-shadow-over-tallahassee-justice.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/16/sports/errors-in-inquiry-on-rape-allegations-against-fsu-jameis-winston.html?_r=0

What the woman did or did not do it irrelevant. The facts are clear that the TPD conspired with FSUPD and the administration to bury this incident. Even the prosecutor who cleared Winston believed that:

106

Unfortunately, not even home colleging can guarantee complete safety. We need to enroll our daughters into self defense classes and give them enough sense to avoid putting themselves into these situations to at least minimize the odds. One mistake can make you a victim.

We need to teach our boys to be sensible as well, any girl can change her mind any minute and label a boy as rapist for rest of his life.

107

@Zinhead

Hey, you do what you got to do in today’s media landscape to get clicks.

The more clicks, the more revenue you earn. Deadspin? I am surprised you didn’t link TMZ or the National Enquirer. The NY Times engaged in yellow journalism in this case also because FSU had an undefeated season that year. Ohio State had a big year the next year and the media turned their attention to them. Look, this would be different if the accuser had not lied to the cops from the word go and if the media sources you linked had reported that but they didn’t. The media covered the Duke Lacrosse case also, and jumped to conclusions and assumptions, and if not for some spectacular work by the Duke player’s lawyers those innocent kids would have gone to jail.

The facts of what the accuser did was uncovered shortly after her accusations and it was never going to go to court because she had lied so much and changed her story over and over. What I posted on this thread is 100% what happened she claimed at first she had been drugged which unequivocally turned out to be a lie once the toxicology report came back. Then she changed her story to she got hit over the head at the apartment. That was proven to be a lie also. Her social media posts were not even reported on in the media. The Tally PD could have, and should have, charged her with filing a false police report but they didn’t want to do that even though the media was saying the Tally PD did not investigate when in fact they did.

The media also acted as if FSU was trying to protect Jameis Winston. The incident happened in Feb 2013 and he wasn’t even the started QB until Aug 2013 and throughout that season. When the incident was first reported FSU had no reason to protect him he was just another 4 star recruit on the roster (half the roster is 4 or 5 star recruits). FSU had another QB on the roster named Jacob Coker who would end up transferring and winning a national championship at Alabama in 2015. FSU could have won with or without Winston. FSU is not building a winning program like Baylor is. FSU reloads they do not rebuild. What Art Briles, the Baylor coach at the time all the Baylor incidents happened. was trying to do was build a winning program and he was cutting corners by letting the bad apples in and not monitoring them. Briles let his boys run wild. FSU doesn’t need players like Jameis Winston to win. They could have won just as much with Coker.

But that doesn’t make a good story so the media will say FSU protected JW to win games.

Jimbo Fisher, the FSU coach, called JW into his office and asked him what happened. JW told him the truth. Jimbo didn’t defend JW in the media he let the justice system run its course. He didn’t bench JW because he knew the truth of what had happened. Was Jimbo wrong? Let me put it this way.

If my son was accused of rape or assault and I asked my son what happened and if my son told me he didn’t do it and if I believed my son was being honest with me would I defend my son no matter what the media and the accuser’s lawyers were saying? You bet your ass I would. What Jimbo did was not wrong. It was consensual sex with a woman who joked with her friends she was a cleat chaser. It was completely different to what happened at Baylor where there were multiple incidents involving multiple players and the accusations were not reported or investigated properly.

If my son had committed the crime my reaction would be 180 degrees different and so would Jimbo Fisher’s. But if your son (or your player) tells you he didn’t do what he is accused of doing and you believe he is telling the truth you don’t throw him under the bus just to satisfy the mob or the person making the false accusation. You go to war to defend the truth.

That is what the Baylor Ladies BB coach did and while I don’t agree with her choice of language I understand her sentiment. There is more to Baylor than what you will hear in the media which is focused on revenue not honest, fact based, fact checked reporting.

108

@GoNoles85 -

If this true, please provide a source that is not an FSU fan site. For all you know, this account could have been made up by an anonymous poster on an internet board.

BTW, if you had read the lawsuit, you might have realized that one of the accusations by Kinsman was that the TPD toxicology test never looked for date rape drugs, but as I said before, what Kinsman did or did not do it irrelevant to the fact that the TPD intentionally bungled the case. This is same police department who had to settle this 2013 police brutality case for $475,000.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AZ3mOQXUWw

And the same police department who was responsible for Rachel Hoffman’s death in an incredibly incompetent sting. They had to pay more than $2,000,000 for that.

http://www.tbo.com/news/tallahassee-settles-suit-over-informant-rachel-hoffmans-death-344663

The TPD is so bad that local politicians want the Leon County Sheriff to take over policing in the city.

http://www.tallahassee.com/story/opinion/2015/02/22/bill-proctor-merge-sheriff-police/23838789/

109

@Zinhead

You can look it up yourself. EK’s social media posts were common knowledge to just about anyone who wasn’t a reporter. The term “cleat chaser” was her description of herself and it is well known her own sorority sisters disowned her after she claimed she was raped because they knew the truth as is everything else I posted. She was lying like a rug and they knew it. They weren’t part of the Tally PD or the DA’s office either. What does that tell you, Zinhead?

I am not that familiar with the 2013 police brutality case or the Hoffman death and am at work so not going to read links. The media isn’t evil or always wrong but that doesn’t mean that everything they report can be trusted and I am sure on that you would agree.

I think I did see a new report on the Hoffman death and it was horrible. The police put her undercover and she got killed. Yeah, that is not good but frankly has nothing to do with the Winston case.

If we are still discussing the major points of this thread I would point out that FSU’s football program has done a great job, not a good job, but a great job of educating players about risks like this and by taking players who are not only exceptional on the field but who actually belong in social settings like college. Baylor was not doing that. They were taking the guys that had no business being in college and they paid the price for it. The FSU/Winston case has more in common with the Duke Lacrosse case than it does with Baylor’s problems.

110

@tutumom2001 Are you really equating one highly publicized case (the victim was not even a Stanford student if I’m not mistaken) with 5 gang rapes, 51 rape allegations by one group of men?

@GoNoles85 You know 100% what happened? You were there? It is not uncommon for rape victims to change their story of having difficulty remembering the exact nature of their assault. Much of your defense of Winston is circumstantial. She called herself a cleat chaser. So what? That doesn’t mean she consents to sex with any athlete. The second she says no, it is rape, whether she is a virgin, sexually active in a monogamous relationship, or even a prostitute. Also, her sorority sisters stopped talking to her because she’s lying? That’s hersay. Perhaps they abandoned her because they did not want to lose their access to the other athletes on campus. You’re assuming because you want to defend Jameis.

This is the same thing that Baylor fans are doing. Excuses, excuses, excuses to defend perpetrators.

As for turning to PD, I’ve never been to Waco, but I’m gonna assume Baylor is a huge part of the community. Women cannot be assured that Waco or university PD will prioritize her interests over the interests of an entire program. Especially if it’s a star player.

111

@CaliCash

And you know the Tally PD botched the investigation how? You are 100% certain that the Tally PD put their careers on the line to protect a redshirt FR QB who had never played in Feb 2013? You know the reason the DA choose not to pursue a case because he was in cahoots with the police cover up how?

These people are in the justice system and are trained to handle this stuff. FSU players have had legal problems enough times over the years to know that the Tally PD isn’t worried about how many games the football team wins.

Neither of us was there but the people who are trained to investigate this stuff thought she was lying and that tells me all I need to know. Her social media posts made it clear why she went to the bar. She pursued the FSU football players and, you are right, that isn’t consenting to sex but no one forced her to go back to the apartment either. She wanted to follow them back to the apartment and took a cab to get there.

There were guys on message boards who spent plenty of time on this back in 2013 and then had copies of just about everything including her social media posts. I didn’t keep any copies of that stuff but I remember enough to know that I believe the athlete, the witnesses who corroborated his story, the other sorority girls who corroborated his story, the cops, the DA and just about everyone else familiar with the facts except the lying accuser and her UF relative lawyers who saw a payday and took it for all they could. FSU football was great before Wnston and is just as great without him. Like I said, Baylor cut corners and paid for it by allowing thugs into their program. Some people probably did over look it and I hope they face criminal charges for it not in the media but it a court of law. Everything else is mumbo jumbo but if you decide not to send your kids to Baylor which is fine by me.

It is not the same thing Baylor fans are doing either b/c Jameis Winston didn’t rape anyone and evidence showed that. That is the difference. The Duke Lacrosse players didn’t rape anyone either and eventually the evidence cleared them. The media treated them as if they were guilty but eventually the truth came out. There is a reason why sometimes you defend one side or the other.

112

@CaliCash You still aren’t getting it. Your bias is showing. If I had a choice to send my daughter to Baylor, where the people who were part of the cover up are now mostly gone, or Stanford, where the people responsible for giving a slap on the wrist to what is probably the most open-and-shut rape case ever in the history of the U.S. judicial system are still around, then, yes, I would prefer to send my daughter to Baylor. Baylor is at least trying to clean house; Palo Alto isn’t. YOU are giving Stanford a “bye” because it’s a prestigious school while vilifying Baylor and holding them to a different standard because of the school’s religious background.

No one here is saying that what happened at Baylor is excusable. It is absolutely horrific and everyone involved should be punished. And, yes, there should be NCAA sanctions. But what I am trying to say - and you have your blinders are and refuse to accept anyone’s opinion other than your own - is that (1) you can’t judge the morality of an entire 16,000-member student body on the actions of a few dozen people and (2) giving the death penalty to a team that isn’t a consistent winning program (especially one that is probably going to have recruiting challenges in the aftermath of scandal) is futile.

That being said, neither school is on D’s wish list so it will probably not be a decision I will have to make.

113

Since Starr and Briles took over Baylor, they were trying to change Baylor’s culture to worship victory and fame instead of worshipping good and God, so good riddance that they were caught and fired and may go to court with their assistants and atheletes.

In aftermath of this scandal, no college is safer than Baylor. They’ll be on their toes trying to move past this scandal and restore their glory. Their campus remained completely safe even when these things were happening so I don’t see a reason for concern.

114

@SugarlessCandy Safe for the 51 rape rape victims or one of the victims in the five gang rapes? Could you just specify?

115

@tutumom2001 My only bias is that I am a woman who is always gonna start by women who have been assaulted. You don’t know be and because you don’t, you wouldn’t know that I supported Baylor football before all of this. My bias is that I am a woman on a college campus and I would transfer if I was part of a university that was able to so easily gloss over rape. Everyone has bias. There are people on CC who are predisposed to giving people who have been accused of rape the benefit of the doubt because they have sons. There are people on CC who are gonna defend other college programs with rape scandals because their own program has had similar scandals. There are people on CC who have been sexually assaulted and are even more empathetic to the victims at Baylor. I do have a right to my own views.

I am not giving Stanford a “bye.” If there were 51 rape allegations with 30 players being accused with, again, FIVE GANG RAPES, I would feel the exact same way. I say this as someone who also supports Stanford football. You cannot compare Stanford to Baylor because this many assaults, with this many players is unprecedented. I am fairly sure that the victim in the Brock Turner case was not even a student at Stanford and as such, there is no real obligation for Stanford to protect her. Brock Turner was expelled from college and then tried, found guilty, and sentenced to prison. That one incident cannot be group of 30+ players who have raped women and gotten away with it.

  1. At which point did I judge the entire Baylor community? I have been consistent in saying that I am talking about the football program. I am not condemning the entire community.

  2. The point of the death penalty is to punish the program. Obviously recruiting challenges are part of the punishment. NCAA takes away scholarships all the time.

  3. I do see

116

@GoNoles85 Going to an apartment isn’t consent. Being naked is not consent. Liking athletes is not consent. Unless she came out and said something along the lines of “Haha, I got that Jameis Winston really good. I can’t wait to ruin his career with this false allegation,” social media posts are not evidence that someone was not raped. This is why rape victims are afraid to come forward. You have scrutinized the victim and her past while conveniently ignoring Winston’s track record. A track record which includes stealing, yelling about grabbing women by the p*ssy, and telling young girls that they need to be quiet and docile and submit to their male peers.

117

I hate it when you don’t have the studies freely available, but this type of statement is an example of how to lie with statistics. Almost all means you’re intentionally adding behaviors that aren’t rape into your statistics. Others have estimated the study’s own data shows 5-15% of respondents using either force or threats to obtain some type of sexual activity. That’s higher than I would have expected, but well below the headline numbers.

118

@GoNoles85 , brother, you are working too hard here. If that tally of rapes, five of them allegedly gang rapes … as in multiple dudes standing around raping someone who is either fighting back or is incapacitated, on one team in the time span indicated … if all that stands up to scrutiny, then if that isn’t a fundamental lack of institutional control, I don’t know what is.

On the Gator theory, you may be right, you may be wrong, but either way, who cares? That’s a detail. I doubt we have a wide spread problem of school rivalries wantonly generating false or cooked up investigations. But then again, if we are, it further emphasizes my point about how out-of-proportion and disconnected college football has become to the institutions they supposedly represent. Do you think that the good people at Williams are cooking up investigations at Amherst or Wesleyan to get one of their star players on the hot seat? Harvard doing that to Yale? Army to Navy? Lehigh to Lafayette (the actual oldest rivalry in football)?

Bottom line, while the rape issue is a national problem, it does not follow from that, logically, that one cannot focus on a particular place or program where it is happening at a particularly high rate and is, allegedly, being perpetrated by a particular group of people. How could you responsibly not look into that?

No, if it’s true, Baylor needs a housecleaning.

119

@GoNoles85 , your argument reminds me of Eric Stratton in Animal House, when he takes over the defense of the Deltas at the college’s inquisition and deflects with his infamous and super funny monologue.

“I’ll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests—we did. [winks at Dean Wormer] But you can’t hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick perverted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn’t we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn’t this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg: isn’t this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you want to us, but we’re not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.”

120

Gee, I am sorry @CaliCash but saying everyone has bias doesn’t cut it. The justice system is supposed to be blind, objective and fair. If you have bias you shouldn’t be judging guilt on a jury in a court of law where facts are sorted out and there are actual rules of evidence!!

55 accusations of rape might turn into 5 actual rapes. Baylor has already cleaned house. @Calicash your problem is that you assume guilt. Very few other people do that. Most other people realize that they don’t know all the facts of each case and let the justice system sort it out. And yes @Calicash, you did make it very clear that you were out to punish everyone in the Baylor community and you did not care about collateral damage so please don’t walk it back now.

You are right that in many cases the alleged victim is afraid to step forward. But that doesn’t mean we should then all assume that any accusation is valid.

It turns out, at least try to be fair, sometimes the accusations are false. So if a coach backs up a player it isn’t always to win games or rape culture it could be because he believes his player is telling him the truth just like what would happen if my son told me he didn’t rape anyone I would defend him.

That seems to be the difference here. @Calicash is on a warpath to condemn anyone and anything in her path. Other people here have a more balanced, intelligent view of these cases. @MiddleburyDad2 you don’t have a clue about FSU’s football program. There may have been a time when FSU’s football program recruited anyone and everyone who could play and those jocks had no business being on a college campus no so much because they were rapists or potential rapists but because they couldn’t read or write. FSU’s program has made huge strides in changing the very same culture people like Calicash are saying needs to be changed. I am not going to waste much time on your comments because, brother, you don’t have a clue as to what you are pontificating about. It is a message board. You don’t need to know what you are talking about to post here.