One thing boggles my mind, why didn’t any, not even one of these women or their parents filed a case in a court until now? I understand many wouldnt but not even one?
Whoa Nelly! @GoNoles85 , you need to go and re-read my post. You’re arguing with me - rather, you’re passionately defending your favorite program - against something I didn’t say or suggest. Regarding FSU’s program in regard to this issue, I said basically nothing. I only pointed out that your suggestion of the Winston investigation being trumped up because of the rivalry with Florida seemed to be an unnecessary diversion from the larger problem being discussed.
So now that that’s settled, go back and tell me what I don’t have a clue about. Because you are missing the point badly, and in the process are flailing about trying to rescue and untenable position. Sure, if it turns out that all these women are making up all these stories, them come back here and take a victory lap, even though nobody disagrees with that rather obvious point.
But Based on years of watching this happen and unfold elsewhere in the college football world, to greater (maybe - this is pretty bad if true) or lesser degrees, I will concede to you that I’m taking a “where there’s smoke there’s Fire” attitude towards the whole thing.
Like I said … Working Way too hard here.
My position is tenable. I’ll defend whatever I choose to defend. It is not my job to correct your bias or ignorance. There have been no gang rape allegations or convictions against any of FSU’s football players in 20 maybe 25 years. Get your facts straight and stop conflating the Baylor mess with FSU’s football program.
By the way, when someone accuses someone else of rape the person being accused is facing 25 years in jail, a criminal record that will ruin their income potential for life, and being branded a sex offender. Those are serious charges. Some people, maybe not you, but some people consider fairness to be a core value. If we are going to be fair to the accuser maybe we ought to be fair to the one being accused as well. That is what the justice system is for.
Believe what you want I don’t care. Post want you want I don’t care. Don’t tell me what to defend or post I can handle that part myself.
You’ve jumped the shark here man. Time to take a breath.
You’re now completely fabricating fantasy arguments to defend and thus essentially talking to yourself. I’m not sure there’s one point in that last crazy diatribe that relates to anything I’ve written … or that anyone else has for that matter. Nobody said anything about FSU. You brought up FSU.
Just by way of review, the general thrust of what most have said here is that there’s a bit of a national problem with big-time athletics and rape, there seems to be something wrong at Baylor, and IF the allegations turn out to be even mostly true, a housecleaning is in order. A rather reasonable set of positions to most sane people.
You, on the other hand, have made your way through this thread and pedantically lectured people on the very obvious points of due process, false allegations, fairness and your freedom to think what you want. As if anyone here needed any of that pointed out. And, then, you wrapped it up by telling me what to do and what not to do.
You’re nuts.
Let’s go back to the original question posed by @CaliCash:
“Would you send your daughters to Baylor?”
Right now, I think Baylor is going to be the most scrutinized college in the country. So, yes, I would feel comfortable sending my daughter there. Several students have been convicted and others are awaiting trial. Members of the coaching staff, the university president, and the Title IX coordinator have been fired. It does seem as though the college is cleaning house at this point in time.
Back to the death penalty: Since then, several players announced their intent to transfer, seven members of the 2016 recruiting class requested to be released from their letters of intent, and six decommitted. The death penalty works when there is an actual possibility that the program is going to have enough success to make a difference. But when the program is already falling apart, I don’t think the death penalty is going to have any impact. What’s the point of having sanctions that keep you from going to a party you aren’t invited to.
Also, there is fallacy in the argument that just because similar allegations haven’t appeared in other colleges doesn’t mean they don’t exist. The Baylor incidents happened between 2012 and 2016. Two years ago, before the incidents were brought into the public eye, people (including the OP) probably considered Baylor a safe place. Two years from now, a “safe” college in 2017 could be the subject of a similar investigation.
I can read Middle Dad. You would think being fair and having due process are obvious but if you have read this thread you will see it needed to be stated. The OP started this thread with the assumption of guilt by the whole university and decided since they were guilty the entire football program should be punished at roughly twice what Penn St. got and then later admitted she was really cool with collateral damage to the completely innocent parts of the Baylor community.
What was that you were saying about fairness being obvious?
You then added your Captain Obvious remarks that if the allegations turn out to be true there might be a problem. Gee, thanks. Never would’ve figured that out myself, Captain.
Like I said if I am so nuts address your comments elsewhere. I do not care what you think about anything and you did in fact bring up gang rape in one of your posts. That didn’t happen at FSU. I was NOT the one who brought up FSU Calicash did and since her comments were a smear I defended which is my prerogative. You brought me up by name nutbar not the other way around and then you got chippy because I replied. Don’t address questions or comments to me unless you can handle a reply.
@SugarlessCandy regarding reporting to the police: I have a young relative that was raped. She reported to the police, had the rape kit done, etc. The city police told her that she shouldn’t continue with the case. She was not supported by them at all. She moved home.
@GoNoles85 Again with this distrust of victims. It’s sad. Statistically speaking, of 55 rapes, fewer than 5 of those would be false allegations. I don’t know why people have this mentality that women want to be known as someone who was raped but that is NOT the case. Justice is not blind. It’s never blind. To imply that it is, is simply myopic. Your bias is that you work closely with young athletes and as a result, you think I’m attacking all men and all athletes when I’m not.
I’m not walking back on anything. Just because there’s is collaterak damage as part of a punishment does not mean you’re directly punishing an entire group of people. If a man who happens to be the breadwinner of a family gets arrested and is found guilty of rape, is the criminal justice system “punishing” the family because they lost their primary source of income.
I am not on any sort of warpath. I wield no power. I am simply expressing my opinion. I believe that rape is the most heinous crime that anyone could ever commit. I think it’s worse than murder. Obviously you don’t feel as strongly about that as I do. That’s your choice. Fine. But the argument that rape occurs in a vacuum and that women are liars and have the burden of proving themselves as victims is all part of rape culture. It’s deeply ingrained and it’s hard to fight it and combat it if you aren’t even aware that you’re contributing to it.
@GoNoles85 The ad hominem attacks are showing the weakness in your position. Can we cool it before this gets shut down?
@tutumom2001 The coach’s comments in the OP make me feel otherwise. Perhaps the AD and head coach are gone, but if people still don’t think there is anything wrong with what happened, obviously, not enough was done.
@CaliCash I disagree with your analysis that the basketball coach doesn’t think anything wrong. You didn’t include her comments near the end of the article:
“Not only do I sympathize with victims, I am angry about the way victims were treated at this university. It is horrible, horrible anytime someone does not take care of a victim. Even one sexual assault is too many. Nobody is dismissing what happened here. I want us to get to the bottom of it.”
You wrote:
I am not on any sort of warpath. I wield no power. I am simply expressing my opinion. I believe that rape is the most heinous crime that anyone could ever commit. I think it’s worse than murder. Obviously you don’t feel as strongly about that as I do. That’s your choice. Fine. But the argument that rape occurs in a vacuum and that women are liars and have the burden of proving themselves as victims is all part of rape culture. It’s deeply ingrained and it’s hard to fight it and combat it if you aren’t even aware that you’re contributing to it.
–No one ever said all women are liars. No one ever said that. You are the one stirring the pot with comments like that. No one ever said all women are liars. Not once. Not on this thread not on any other thread.
–But you write that inaccurate nonsense and off you go. Again.
–Any time you accuse someone of a crime, and bring a criminal complaint, which is a sworn complaint, you have the burden of proof. That doesn’t mean society thinks all women are liars. It means you have to prove what you are accusing someone of. It means you shouldn’t bring false complaints into the system. It is NOT part of rape culture it is part of justice.
–It is NOT rape culture. It is justice.
–And as I explained in my previous posts, which you ignore, if a coach defends his players that isn’t “always” part of rape culture or win at all costs culture it might very well be because that coach believes that player did not commit the crime he was accused of. Think about it. Get back to me.
–People have a right to defend themselves especially if the allegations are FALSE like they were in the Duke Lacrosse case and many, many other cases involving jocks or powerful men.
–That doesn’t mean women don’t deserve to be treated fairly at all. If the police do not investigate the crimes properly that is a huge problem and should be prosecuted as well. But, neither you nor I know that about any PD mentioned in this thread so maybe you should stop screaming rape culture on every post you make and only apply that term when and where it needs to be applied.
–Women deserve to be safe and protected. I posted that 100 posts ago. Do not put words in my mouth. You know nothing about what I believe or stand for. I believe in fairness. It is not negotiable. It goes both ways and I will stand up and fight for fairness.
–Accusing someone of rape puts them at jeopardy of going to jail for 25 years, ruins their income potential, ruins their lives, in some cases even if they are not convicted, and labels them a sex offender for the rest of their lives. That is why normal people prefer to let the justice system handle it in the first place.
@GoNoles85 “I do not care what you think about anything.”
Um, it’s pretty clear you do.
“and you did in fact bring up gang rape in one of your posts”
yes, because there were allegations of 5 such incidents AT BAYLOR. it seems you don’t, in fact, read so well. it’s kind of funny, in a tragic sort of way, that you assumed I was talking about FSU. defensive much?
" I was NOT the one who brought up FSU "
you brought up the Winston investigation. that’s what we discussed. my comment was in response to your made up allegation that I was conflating Baylor with FSU. keep up Mensa Man.
"Don’t address questions or comments to me "
is this where I make the juvenile and obvious point that I can do what I want? lol
“then later admitted she was really cool with collateral damage to the completely innocent parts of the Baylor community”
I’ll let that poster defend him/herself, but I am absolutely amazed at your inability to comprehend the point. it’s flying completely over your head, and you are flailing about like someone with mental illness trying to defend yourself for basically not being very smart.
“Gee, thanks. Never would’ve figured that out myself, Captain.”
Can you at least be original? That’s my line.
I’ll leave you with this thought: if the Baylor players are exonerated en mass, I’ll be here should you choose to exercise your freedom to return and take a victory lap. I like my odds.
@“Snowball City” Then their parents and law failed them as well by not pushing and proving it or making noise, involving newspapers. This is why I say that it’s a widespread issue, not a single victim, a single predator, a single college issue. Women need to demand universal change, instead of getting satisfied with getting one coach fired or one team banned. We need collective justice not individual punishment. A better environment where sexual assault is treated as serious physical assault.
“Also, there is fallacy in the argument that just because similar allegations haven’t appeared in other colleges doesn’t mean they don’t exist.”
And? Even if someone is committing that fallacy, what do you propose be done about it? You can’t act on something until there is something on which to act.
This talk of “it happens everywhere” reminds me of the POTUS’ most recent tweet concerning wire taping. It seems desperate and intended to deflect.
Baylor is the issue right now. Stanford was under scrutiny because of the swimmer. Sadly, there will be another, and at that point, with this country’s incredibly short attention span, Baylor’s issues will fade to black.
But what does any of that HAVE TO DO WITH BAYLOR NOW? A place where there are allegations of numerous rapes occurring over a relatively short period of time by a relatively focused group of students … allegations which, if proven true, would rival anything I’ve heard of or remember on any college campus anywhere, and that is a mouthful considering some of the renegade programs of the past. Nebraska during the mid-90s may take the cake, but this would rival what was going on there at that time … again, IF true.
Why on earth do you want to distract from that? The other incidents, when they are uncovered, will take care of themselves. This isn’t a conspiracy against Baylor.
@tutumom2001 Nope. Doesn’t matter. That’s what she said in response to the backlash about her punching comment. That’s not the tone she had from the beginning. I’m not impressed by her backtracking.
1)Arguing that there is a scenario in which virtually all of the accusations are false is the equivalent of branding them as all liars.
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We are not talking about the criminal justice system. The burden of proof is not the same. We are talking about the NCAA and Title IX investigations.
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Ken Starr did not simply “defend players.” He discouraged reporting from cases he KNEW about. That is way different than simply being a character witness for a player.
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You keep bringing up the Duke case. It’s unfortunate. Truly. But it’s an anomaly nonetheless. The rates of false reports are roughly the same across ALL crimes and yet for some reason, you keep bringing up false allegations as most people who are part of rape culture do.
(FWIW: It was ** BAYLOR** who released the information about the gang rapes)
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“Normal people” often don’t see justice in the “justice system” considering how many rapists get away with their crimes. Do you realize how many tens of THOUSANDS of rape kits have been destroyed? For many people, they don’t want the attention or frustration of a trial and turn to their univeristies as a result. Sometimes, it’s the only avenue and when they let women down and the entire Baylor community down, they deserve to be held accountable. When university and sports interests are put before the safety and well being of students, it cannot be treated with the cavalier manner that you would like. These are people’s lives we’re talking about. Rapes were happening way too often and they were done by way to many people to brush it off as just your average college football team. It’s unacceptable. You can’t address rape culture at large if you are are unwilling to fix rape factories right in front of you.
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I would like to live in a world where sexual assault is taken seriously and are deal breakers, considering almost all of them are false. Not to get too political but Donald Trump did run a successful campaign while having a child rape lawsuit looming over his head for almost the entire campaign. That aside, almost no rapists go to jail for their crimes. I think the # is something like only 7 out of every 100 rapists will ever spend a day in jail. It’s pathetic. It should be taken more seriously, it’s not. But again, this culture has been accepted by too many people.
@MiddleburyDad2 I personally don’t think so. This is an important conversation. I was expecting to get more of the big CC minds on it though. In addition, I expect that more threads will probably open up on it in the future considering this is an I’m going investigation.
A judge ruled yesterday that the case will proceed.
^^^ sure… no culture.
“Baylor officials last month revealed select text messages between Briles, assistant coaches and staff members that appear to show them trying to shield players from police and university discipline.”
To me the details behind this statement are pivotal in terms of whether this university should receive the death penalty. If Baylor officials have been in compliance with their oversight duties, came forward in good faith, because they recently discovered and it was the right think to do, then I don’t think they should receive the death penalty.
Conversely, if the administration came forward because they decided they were likely to get caught, and they have failed to exercise appropriate oversight of the coaching staff, then I think the “death penalty” is in order.
It is critical for the NCAA to send a crystal clear message that covering incidents will ultimately be much more costly than coming forward. It is also critical to convey that maintaining proper oversight and not looking the other way offers protection from penalties, as does transparency in reporting what you know.
@CaliCash “Nope. Doesn’t matter. That’s what she said in response to the backlash about her punching comment. That’s not the tone she had from the beginning. I’m not impressed by her backtracking.”
Actually, it DOES matter when the source I quoted was YOUR SOURCE. You can’t use YOUR SOURCE and negate discussion in the rest of the story.
Also, I have NEVER denied on this thread that the incidents occurred. Quite frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more that haven’t come out of the woodwork yet.
Again, I will summarize two points (1) Baylor is under such intense scrutiny that I think a similar incident happening there in the near future is slim and (2) Rape happens everywhere, and it could very well happen to your daughter at any other university.
This is not a who’s right/who’s wrong debate. Approximately 2,000 females will choose to attend Baylor this fall as freshman. That doesn’t make their decisions wrong just because you choose not to have your daughter be one of them. I’m not saying your opinion is wrong. It’s an opinion and not a fact, you have every right to have it, and I respect that of you. Please have the same respect for others who do not share your opinion.