Would you send your daughters to Baylor?

Parents Forum
141

@CaliCash

This is what Calicash posted in #93:

Puninishing Baylor severely does address the bigger issue. It makes it known that a culture (and yes @GoNoles85, it is a culture. Just like the culture at FSU that let Jameis Winston get away with rape from the Tallahassee PD to school administration) that does not respect and protect women will not be tolerated. If schools see that harsh penalty, that will serve as a great example for why winning shouldn’t come at just any cost. And shifting the blame and burden onto the victims is just as problematic and is systematic of the rape culture in the US as a whole. Don’t wanna get raped? Avoids athletes and parties.

–No one had even brought up FSU until Calicash did.

–Like I said I did not bring up FSU until I felt compelled to reply to the above smear.

142

@137,

So the justice system is working on it? Isn’t that what you want? That way the guilty parties get punished after a fair trial. Or do you just want to assume guilt to get it over with before the trial?

You see, some folks don’t assume they know more than the people on the ground. We know enough to know they have more complete and better information than what we have.

You see, some people don’t read just the headlines or parse the words of others and leave out critical information to suit your personal rant/agenda. Some people are more balanced.

The Baylor Ladies BB coach might very well be tired of hearing her school and community being trashed in the media when she has personal knowledge of all the good and great people in that community. She might want the guilty parties to be brought to justice just as much as you do. Have you even once stopped to consider her point of view on this issue? Do you actually think she condones of rape? Can you at least contemplate ay any level where she is coming from? I’m curious and doubt I will get a reply on point on anything I just asked.

143

I don’t agree. SMU would have restarted its football team the next DAY if the NCAA had allowed it. The NCAA had tried all kinds of other penalties and they just didn’t work. Penn State didn’t get the death penalty and didn’t miss a season in any sport, didn’t miss a game (except the playoff games it was required to sit out). Ole Miss boosters and alums have been told over and over to stop with the payola and yet it continues.

No question that Baylor’s football team will be hurting for a while, but there will be plenty of players to take those scholarships and have a few losing seasons. There will still be girls who are on the ‘meet and greet’ squad.

144

How many of the 52 alleged rapes have been proven, there’s a criminal conviction?

145

I have to catch up, but want to say before I start reading again that I totally disagree with this…totally.

146

“…and (2) Rape happens everywhere, and it could very well happen to your daughter at any other university.”

with all due respect, most everyone understands this. it’s kind of like telling me that water is wet.

which is why some posters bristle when this is what they hear on the heels of accusations (yes, yes, accusations - we get that too) that FIFTY TWO rapes, and FIVE GANG RAPES, by just the football team. Not all athletes or across the student population. Just the football team!!!

147

The Baylor Ladies BB deserved to get trashed for her initial comments, because they didn’t reflect any understanding of the gravity of the situation within the athletic department at her own school. Her initial comments mirrored exactly what someone in complete denial would be saying.

@CaliCash says

I remain skeptical of the veracity of her later comments, but I would like to believe that if there is any sincerity from her in the backtracking, perhaps it mirrors some of what the Baylor community desperately needs - some recognition of how freaking serious an issue they have had. So maybe the backtracking is a baby step if not in the right direction - it was at least a slowing of running full speed in the wrong direction. As was the firing of Briles and the badly handled ousting of Ken Starr.

If only the ladies BB coach fathom a similar level of respect for the thousands of females and their families who decide that under the circumstances and information provided to date, the culture at Baylor does not seem to be one that has respected women’s rights to safety. Instead, she wanted to “knock them right in the face”, comments which were met with cheers from the Baylor community. How can you argue that this is reflective any degree of respect for others who do not share the same opinion?

I am sure there are a lot of good women at Baylor who are angry about their university, and who don’t like the way any of this has been handled. Likely there are many who want nothing to do with the football program and would be fine if the NCAA hands down the death penalty, and a serious fine, and other athletic sanctions. Forgive me if I am not eager to consider the point of view of someone in the athletic department who a) could be affected by NCAA sanctions and b) has been completely disrespectful to outsiders and potential student applicants with concerns about how bad a culture problem Baylor has tolerated.

But I thank those who respectfully disagree with my opinion.

148

This is what the new football coach said and I whole heatedly agree with his sentiments. Anytime you talk about “culture” it pays to make a mental note to yourself that it is never about “everybody.” “Culture” has become a rather over-used buzzword IMO that carries little weight. There are probably plenty of young women who were part of the Baylor greeters or whatever you call them who were “quality” women and I have no doubt that there were football players who were “quality” men. I felt that same way about Penn State, really about any of the colleges that have been embroiled in “scandals” real or media concocted. If you “kill” a football program you take away from the quality kids who are far more abundant than the bad seeds…you deny the marching band, you deny the spectators, you deny everyone who enjoys or benefits from the program AFTER you have rid the bad seeds. Seems alittle unjust just because a small segment of the population is outraged and want vindication. It’s not even an “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” because the eyes and the teeth have already been extracted.

149

We flew into Dallas and started our Texas college road trip at TCU on a Saturday last month followed by SMU Spring Blitz on Monday. We then drove to Waco and checked into a hotel with the intention of attending the Baylor information session and tour the following morning. Daughter and I walked over to Magnolia to check out Joanna and Chip’s store while my husband stayed back at the hotel to rest and research dinner options (there were few to none!). As we were walking to our hotel from Magnolia, we came across a prostitute who was having a very difficult time walking in her 8 inch heels while carrying a shopping bag of athletic clothing and a box of athletic shoes. Her dress was nothing more than a tight fitting t shirt and it was obvious she was not wearing undergarments. Yes, I was aware of the scandal involving the football team, the football coach, and the recent arrest and dismissal of the Baylor strength coach for soliciting a prostitute. Here it was, 3pm on a beautiful Spring like afternoon and we could not believe what were were seeing. In all honesty, we should have done our homework and researched the University and the town of Waco more thoroughly before considering sending our daughter to Baylor. When we returned to our room, we started doing our research and read up on the University and the town of Waco. It was then we decided we would not be wasting our time and checked out of the hotel the same afternoon. Even though we had paid for and lost the room charge for the night, we quickly got in our car, drove to Austin, and checked into another hotel. We had scheduled a late afternoon tour of UT Austin the next day to conclude our TX college road trip. This was a wonderful decision and were disappointed we wasted precious time in Waco. It all boiled down to the great hypocrisy of Baylor and it’s “religious” values. A university that values and worships elite football players and coaches over women and Christian values. In lieu of the twice a week chapel attendance Baylor requires, they should require female students to take classes on self-defense and the men to take classes on treating women with respect and not engage in sexual assault. I know not every student is a victim and not every student is perp. but you get my point. My daughter received a text last week from Baylor indicating they had left a gift for her at the hotel and were sorry she was unable to attend the tour and information session. I told her I hope Baylor’s gifts for prospective female students include a whistle, mace, and a necklace that reads “NO MEANS NO!” Go ahead Mulkey, knock me right in the face while you and the University try to sweep this mess under the rug. We and thousands of other families will choose not to send our daughter’s to Baylor. There are too many wonderful Universities and colleges in this country to choose from that will not treat women with such disregard. There are too many Universities and colleges in this country to choose from where our daughter will be proud to attend and Baylor University will never be one of them.

150

“with all due respect, most everyone understands this. it’s kind of like telling me that water is wet.”

You’re probably right that most everyone on CC understands this. Lots of parents and students do not perceive this risk accurately. There is disproportionate worry about non-student criminals breaking into dorms, mugging/murdering students, etc.

“accusations (yes, yes, accusations - we get that too) that FIFTY TWO rapes, and FIVE GANG RAPES, by just the football team. Not all athletes or across the student population. Just the football team!!!”

I’m extremely cynical about how universities behave given the incentives of big time football and basketball programs. Baylor may well be worse than its peers, but there will be another scandal like this elsewhere soon. I don’t assume that all big-time money-sport schools are created equal when it comes to rape culture, but I do assume there are a bunch of other Baylors out there that haven’t come to light yet.

151

@hanna " I do assume there are a bunch of other Baylors out there that haven’t come to light yet."

That is why it is critical to make a strong incentive to immediately disclose what they know immediately, and severely punish schools who cover it up. We have to provide a strong incentive for schools to be transparent and do the right thing.

152

The point of sanctions is not to punish a school, it is to deter other schools from doing something similar. The problem is that the NCAA is slow to punish schools, is wildly inconsistent concerning the of the punishment and frequently lets schools with major issues skate.

UNC-CH is a good case in point. For over a decade they engaged in academic fraud that allowed hundreds of athletes in various sports to remain eligible. We are still waiting for the NCAA to do something even though this issue first came to light in 2011. Self-policing as practiced by the NCAA does not work.

153

@GoNoles85 - I am certainly willing to consider the other points of view. Will you be willing to do the same?

If I was not clear, I apologize. I don’t believe the Ladies BB coach is in favor of rape. I don’t think she is part of the “rape culture” - but I do believe it is easy to interpret her initial comments, and especially some in the cheering crowd, to be part of the “denial culture”. Part of the culture that allows this to go on, and that is content with the university “reassigning” Ken Star (not firing him).

It is easy for the denial crowd to simply say we should prosecute those responsible for the crimes, and to let the justice system run its course. Given the recent history of the school trying to cover this up, would you not consider it reasonable for some people to question the efficacy of this approach? For people who have been burned, is it unreasonable for them to be wary when the coals are still smoldering?

The women’s BB coach may know more about the Baylor community, but I would wager that she does not know, nor could she know, how this whole thing comes across to people outside the community, who might have considered Baylor in the past.

And it does not appear that those who are in denial, or who want to rush to sweep this all under the rug, are considering our perspective at all. Baylor has lost a lot in the court of public opinion.

Will you not consider the possibility - especially given how poorly Baylor seemed to handle almost everything related to this - that the Ladies BB coach’s follow up comments after getting (and I will respectfully omit the word “deservedly”) blasted were purely scripted, PR damage control? If they don’t feel genuine, is it not rational for some of us to feel skeptical?

If you think everything is perfectly fine at Baylor now, enjoy your opinion. For those of us who want the rest of the Title IX investigation and NCAA punishments to be handed down before we get comfortable, please allow us more time.

When you say

you seem to conveniently forget that this is exactly what did NOT happen at Baylor. It seems you are ignoring the reason a lot of people blasted the Ladies BB Coach, deflecting the issue by saying she had nothing to do with the crimes. Don’t forget what she was blasted for her - it was her public comments that effectively ridiculed anyone who would express some concern about the magnitude of this problem. From the outside, it is obvious for anyone to see that the magnitude of the problem at Baylor is/was severe, and it is natural to wonder how could a school let something like this go on? So when we hear her making comments that are consistent with the denial of the magnitude, and her follow up comments appear scripted, what we are to think? Allow us to be skeptical that badly needed change has not happened yet.

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And for the record, I don’t need anyone on a message board telling me I should spend my resources helping victims.

My own charitable efforts volunteering in inner-city schools and at a women’s shelter are sufficiently spent in areas where I know I make a difference.

155

@3puppies

I’m more than happy to consider other people’s points of view on any issue. I compliment you for putting your time and money where your mouth is by volunteering to make a difference and not just smear PD’s across the country and other innocent parties because of what happened in Waco, Texas.

I have absolutely no problem defending 99.9% of the PD’s in this country even though I walked into a PD a few months to report, for the first time in my life, a crime. No, actually the second time. The police in my community did absolutely nothing to help me. But I am not going to let that taint my opinion of all police officers across this great country because even though they didn’t help me I believe that 99.9% of police officers are honest hard working people who keep us safe.

I also thank you for an intelligent and civil reply.

Now, on point to what you responded to me. I still don’t see why anyone would be offended by the Women’s BB coaches comments. Correct me if I am wrong, but people are being prosecuted, right? People who knew what was going and covered it up were fired, right? So exactly how does the W BB coach’s comments contribute to rape culture in the eyes of people outside of Waco? It seems to me Baylor is making the needed changes. If your point is that Baylor was slow to make changes I honestly have to wonder what people expect. Was the W BB coach supposed to invent a time machine and go back in time to prevent the rapes and then jet across town to the police station to make sure they were investigating?

That is exactly what I mean.

If the people responsible for this mess are being dealt with what more should or could Baylor have done or be doing NOW? Not in the past, but now? I hope I am being clear enough.

You seem like a very intelligent, informed, civil, reasonable soul. I never have trouble discussing things with folks such as yourself. I respect how you make a difference, Whining and complaining on this message board is not change it is just the whacked out and warped view of someone who wants to smear whomever he or she can because of her own biased and hate based personal revenge seered agenda.

156

And I’ll add this.

For all the baloney on this thread about punishing people who are not responsible for the alleged crimes, I don’t think there is another example of what happened at Baylor besides maybe Penn. St.

I don’t think the Penn St. situation was covered up to win games either. I think it was covered up by the sheer ineptitude of everyone involved who somehow couldn’t believe what was reported to them.

Jerry Sandusky wasn’t that important, yes he was the defensive coordinator, but he was entirely replaceable. I just think people couldn’t believe what they had heard when they should have believed it. I don’t even think Joe Paterno was able to truly comprehend it.

There are examples of other rapes my male athletes against female students but not mass rapes and mass coverups just to win games. The Baylor case is an outlier. So for all this talk about sending messages about not to cover up rapes, I think people already know that. The fact that you will get fired or sent to jail for covering up a crimes such as rape is deterrent enough is it not?

157

@GoNoles85

You’re fooling yourself. It may be the most egregious case, but the athletic department covering up assault for wins is widespread in D1 money sports (FB, BB).

158

We can agree to disagree on the BB coach’s comments - the initial ones - where she attempted to tell the public there was nothing wrong at Baylor.

And do you not see that because of the magnitude of the problem, it is not the rape culture, but the denial culture, that she was getting blasted for. Since the rest of the world can easily form an opinion that the denial culture contributed to the cover up and magnitude of the problem, she lost a lot of credibility. We don’t believe that change has happened yet, and we probably won’t for a long while since the NCAA takes forever in its investigations.

Baylor claims to live by Christian values, but their actions haven’t shown the best of Christianity.

Everything Baylor has done thus far appears to be the actions of a school trying to push this all under the rug.

159

Baylor has not prosecuted its own administration for the cover up. They have the evidence, but have only fired Briles. They should publicly assist in the prosecution of Ken Starr and coach Briles for their crimes in covering this up. They should sue them for breach of contract to recover the millions they were paid.

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@3puppies @#159

Maybe Baylor should “publicly” assist in the prosecution and maybe they should pressure the DA behind the scenes to build the case and bring it to court. I don’t think anyone on this thread has said that the responsible parties shouldn’t pay for their crimes. I sure as heck will not defend Ken Starr other than to say he deserves a fair trial.

You do not get fair trials in the media. I would argue that part of the problem is the way the media sensationalizes stories like this to get clicks and revenues. That is disgusting at a different level but disgusting none the less especially when innocent people get trashed in the process.

I was watching Dr. Phil once and he was acting like he was trying to help but what he was really doing to talking about something sexual to get ratings and making it like he was really doing something about it. It involved teens who dress sexy or whatever and it was more porn than TV. The news that portals like TMZ and others do is just as bad. The media is part of the problem in many respects.

The actions of a few are not the actions of all of the people who live and work in the Baylor community. You can’t seem to grasp that but don’t worry you are not the only one.

I wrote that Baylor is an outlier.

In post #157 you replied with this:

You’re fooling yourself. It may be the most egregious case, but the athletic department covering up assault for wins is widespread in D1 money sports (FB, BB).

–Well, then surely you won’t have trouble giving me multiple examples of this.

–Because what I see is players getting kicked off the team and prosecuted for what they are doing.

–Because what I see is the amazing amount of education and life skills programs that D1 programs are doing to keep jocks out of trouble, maybe for self serving purposes, but it is still the right thing to do.

@blossom brought up the NFL’s problems with spoiled over paid, pampered from an early age jocks. The NFL has spent a ton of money to get these guys to fit into society during and after their careers are over.

–Some of the stereo types being perpetuated on this thread are old and tired and based on ignorance.

–I noted on ESPN the other day that an NFL players got cut because he got arrested for DUI. That didn’t used to happen if he was any good. But it happens now. You are gone. Your career is over. NFL players are held to a higher standard than the general population in some cases. Hmmmmm. Some people might have to update their standard accusations when they become slightly less ignorant.

–But please mention as many examples of multiple rapes at a D1 school over looked by the university to win games. Please by all means educate me. I look forward to your reply.

–If it happens so often surely you can think of multiple examples off the top of your head but feel free to use Google as well.