Hi everyone! I’m finalizing my college application strategy and trying to lock down my top choice for an Early Decision (ED) application. I want a school that serves as a realistic yet ambitious “dream school” fit, but my profile needs to balance a few specific, non-negotiable boxes:
Major: Neuroscience or Cognitive Science.
Career/Pre-Med: Strong research access for undergraduates (without being crowded out by grad students) and solid medical school preparation/advising.
Class Culture: A strong preference for small, collaborative classes rather than massive weed-out lecture halls.
The Arts Catch: I am heavily involved in serious classical and jazz vocal music (private instruction, recitals, performance) and need a school where I can genuinely continue high-level arts alongside a rigorous STEM/pre-med track.
My Current College List:
Pomona College
Barnard College
Yale University
University of Pennsylvania (UPenn)
Washington University in St. Louis (WashU)
Northwestern University
University of Michigan (UMich)
University of Southern California (USC)
Stanford
Rice University
My Core Questions:
1. The ED Strategy: Given that I want strong undergraduate research, smaller classes, and internship/research/lab oppurtunities, does using an ED card on a smaller environment like Pomona make more sense, or should I take the plunge on a research heavyweight?
2. Lab Culture for Undergrads: How do mid-sized/large universities on this list (like Northwestern, WashU, or USC) compare to liberal arts colleges (Pomona/Barnard) when it comes to undergrads actually getting meaningful neuroscience lab positions?
3. Balancing Pre-Med & Vocal Arts: Across these specific campuses, which ones realistically allow a pre-med STEM student to maintain proficient/even conservatory-level vocal training and performance oppurtunities?
Would love any advice on narrowing down this list for an ED commitment!
Do any of these particular campuses (like the vibe of a place like WashU, UPenn, Yale or Northwestern versus a smaller college) stand out to you more when you imagine your day-to-day routine?
I am a bit intimidated by Ivies (especially ed) because I don’t know if it will be realistic for me. For reference, I went to an arts highschool, took 10 APs (in total), weighted gpa 4.3, sat 1480. Thank you!
Question #1 - I’ve visited Pomona, I truly love Pomona, I can afford Pomona, and I can see myself there for four years - which includes your ability for music and more. Honestly, you can do research in most every place - large and small. My kids had more opportunities because the demand outstrips the supply. Many say they want to do research but that changes when they get to college. Of course, that might be different at higher pedigree schools - i.e. more competition. I can’t say as mine was to a large flagship and regional school - one in STEM, one in social science and research opportunities were plentiful.
If all that is true - Pomona is what you 100% want - then go for it.
You might do a chance me - you can’t tell much from a weighted GPA. You need an unweighted (4 for an A, 3 for a B, 2 for a C. Add the points and divide by the # of courses.
And 10 APs - but in what. We don’t know your academic background, etc.
So not enough info.
But if everything from desire and affordability says Pomona, then that’s a reason to do it. If you don’t get in, oh well. Their loss.
Given the questions you ask, sounds like you need to do a lot more homework before you ED.
And given your list is likely too reachy for most anyone (certainly anyone with a 1480 SAT), what are your safe schools. That school is the most important school - not the big names which are easy for anyone to mention…but where, if I strike out on this list (which is possible, just looking at the names) - where can I afford and be happy for four years that I’ll certainly get into.
That’s far more critical.
Good luck.
PS - no one has to ED. That’s a choice and not a necessary choice.
Colleges don’t “prepare” you to apply to medical school. They offer the required courses necessary for medical school applicants…the rest is on you.
You can be a premed intention at just about every college in this country.
At this point, I would suggest that premed be your back burner criteria. I had a STEM kid who was a strong orchestral musician and wished to continue in college. That was THE hardest criteria for her to fulfill when looking for colleges.
Could you please do a chance me/match me thread and answer all of the questions on the template? The info you have provided here doesn’t give anyone here a picture of you as an applicant other than what you want. Please include your GPA, standardized test scores, and everything else on that template.
And please include your annual college budget that your family can provide.
Non-Ivy league institutions can also be intimidating! Seems to me that you already have a preference for Pomona College. Then I think you should apply ED1. Why complicate the process by including any of the Ivys? If you don’t feel the instant “click” with any of them, then don’t apply. What is your U.S. state of residence, by the way, to see what in-state school options are available?
I see you have Barnard on the list. Why not Wellesley? Plenty of opportunities for undergraduate research, both on campus and at other schools, like MIT, as one of our kids found out when she was attending back in the day (graduated with a degree in neuroscience). Boston is a biotech/pharma hotbed, so there are also summer internships available for students interested in biomedical research.
I find this advice to premature, given OP hasn’t shared if Pomona is even their top choice or if it is affordable.
OP, what about Pomona appeals to you other than your idea that a smaller school may give you more research opportunities? Did you visit any of these schools? Are they affordable?
As @thumper1 already requested, please fill out the entire Chance Me template.
Sure, that’s the question. But giving a definitive answer based on the sharing of a small fraction of relevant information seems premature to me. Hopefully, OP will come back with more info.
I generally don’t endorse treating ED as a “card” you hold and need to play. I think if everything lines up appropriately, you CAN apply ED. But if it doesn’t line up like that, and you don’t apply ED anywhere, that’s also fine.
So what needs to line up? I would suggest:
(1) You have a clear favorite and think there is no possibility of changing your mind;
(2) You know it would be comfortably affordable, and wouldn’t even want to consider anything like discretionary merit offers; and
(3) This college actually has ED.
I note a lot of people have a favorite that doesn’t have ED, so that’s one common reason not to ED anywhere. Others really want to compare merit, so that’s another. And others are still investigating and considering options, so are not ready to commit anywhere.
OK, if Pomona is all that for you, great. If somewhere else is, also great. But if no college is, that’s fine too.
What baffles me about Broccolini034’s current list is that she is only targeting two small colleges. I think a more balanced list (e.g. 5-6 LACs & 5-6 universities), or even slightly more LACs (e.g. 7-8 LACs & 4 larger universities) would include better targets & potentially more positive outcomes, based on the limited information provided in the OP thus far.
What bothers me is the student listed only highly rejective schools. Hopefully they add more. Conversely, we don’t know where they fit music wise. Do they plan to join school groups or continue on their own ?
This limits you to a few hundred universities plus a few hundred LACs. There are a very large number of colleges and universities that are very good for premed students. If you were to for example attend a university ranked in the 100 to 150 range, you might be surprised how strong the other students are in your premed classes.
However, eight years of university is expensive. Medical school is expensive. If you are serious about being a premed student, then you need to budget for a full 8 years of university. In terms of budgeting for 8 years, the first four are way, way easier in terms of finding an affordable school compared to the last 4. My first comment therefore is that you need to make sure that you are fine with the cost of a full 8 years. Some have estimated this as potentially $800,000. However, costs go up over time and there are already some universities that cost close to $100,000/year and some MD programs that cost more than this. It might very well run to $900,000 by the time that you are done. Make sure that this is okay. Do not plan to take the full cost of medical school as debt. Even half of the cost of medical school as debt would be a LOT of debt, even for a doctor.
My next comment is that you have no safety on your list. You very definitely can attend a university that would be a safety, without have much if any impact at all on your chances of making it to medical school. You really, really need to apply to at least one and preferably two safeties. If this is an in-state public school then it might be easy to pick. Otherwise it might not be easy to pick.
This is the next thing that I noticed.
Four years of premed classes plus four years of medical school is a HUGE commitment of time and effort (and money). I don’t have any immediate family members who are doctors. I do have a daughter who is a veterinarian. The required premed classes and pre-vet classes are the same classes. As such she knew a large number of premed students from her undergraduate classes, and she needed to commit to put in the effort to do well in these classes. As such she did find herself neglecting her music while she was an undergraduate student, and again when she was studying for her DVM. This is likely to happen regardless of where you go to university. There is only so much time in the day. Yes she still had her guitar in university and she and I did go skiing a few times, but the premed classes are very challenging and studying for them will soak up a lot of time and effort.
At the schools on your list something relatively close to every student in your premed classes is going to be academically very, very strong. You might think that 1480 is pretty good on your SAT (and it is) but the schools on your list will be full of premed students with the same or higher SAT scores and GPAs, who are very committed to doing well in the premed classes. They will be studying long hours and you will need to keep up. There will be quiet kids who do not impress you who end up somehow getting an 85 on those brutal premed midterm exams where the class average is in the 40’s or 50’s.
I think that you should ED to your top choice, or not at all. The desire for small classes to me makes a lot of sense. There is likely to be some advantage to being at a school that has very few or no graduate students, in that you will not need to compete with the graduate students for research opportunities. If the cost of attendance works out for your family, then I think that Pomona is indeed a very good choice for a premed student.
In terms of Pomona versus Rice versus Stanford versus somewhere else, I do not think that this difference will make any difference at all in terms of your chances of ever making it to medical school with three exceptions. One exception is that you would be better off at a school where you are comfortable. The second is that you might be better off if you attend a college or university that has a hospital nearby where you can do shadowing. The third exception is related to my point above about cost – you need to be able to afford medical school.
In terms of research opportunities. There are a lot of opportunities at a lot of colleges and universities. The highest ranked schools might have more opportunities, but they also have stronger competition for those opportunities. I think that there are hundreds of schools where you can find some very good research opportunities.
To me your reasons for wanting a small school make sense. There are a LOT of very good small schools in the US. Pomona and Rice are very good. If you are serious about improving your chance of getting to attend a small school you might want to add a few more to your list, probably including one or two that are significantly easier for admissions.
And I agree that you do not need to ED anywhere.
This is indeed what is far more critical, and is missing entirely from the list.
Just for info, here’s where one major medical school gets its students from. I can’t find too many that show this info. This is U Kentucky. They come from many large or non selective schools.
Vanderbilt is similar to many on your list. From 2021-23, 86 Vandy students applied to Kentucky med. 8 got in.
So it’s likely far less about where you go vs Ivy or selective. It’s likely more, judging by the list below, how you perform in class, on the MCAT, and what you do while there (shadowing, volunteering, etc).
This is all to say that if you want to ED, make sure you are to the right place for you, not just because of the perceived name strength. If your list is truly right for you and you can afford all, the great to ED. But if you’re looking for best odds at a non Ivy, not a reason to ED IMHO.
It’s not as if Murray State or Akron or Nevada Reno or Southern Indiana are selective. Yet their grads are beating out the grads of schools like Vandy.
Edit - I added a 2nd UTK underneath. Couldn’t find others but u Mich says from 165 schools including 18 schools from in state -so that’s going to be a lot of non selective schools.
As for No. 2 on your list of priorities, the thing about Pomona is that under California law a student can’t simply work in lab on a volunteer basis; they have to either receive academic credit or be paid (which usually means applying for a summer internship.)This can make things feel a bit more formalized than most other LACs. And remember that at Pomona you are competing with four other members of the Claremont Consortium.
Agreeing with @merc81 Vassar rec, unless you have a really strong objection to weather in the Northeast.
I’m not sure we are at more schools yet. It’s more where should I ED like I have to ED.
Does Vassar offer jazz voice ? I don’t know if OP will continue lessons in college as a non music major via the school’s but I don’t see it on their list. Less selective but still selective U Rochester appears to offer jazz voice lessons and would be strong in the defined areas as well.
Hope OP responds to the thread they created to see if they even need alternatives or are just asking about the ED.
