Thanks for the note. I’m sure the advisor will make him take the other classes outside of eberly and informed him about your son’s course list. He’s confirmed for group counselling on 11th.
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My Son had the group counselling (20 students) followed by 1-on-1 discussion with Physics dept advisor. He was asked to take 2 honors course one non STEM and one STEM. So, he registered for 137H and department allowed him to commit for 230H. this will be 17 credits. I’m advising him to drop 230H and take 230 but advisor insisted to take 2 honors course. Is it possible to drop a course after attending say 1-2 lectures or continue as ‘auditing student’? i think 17 is still too much.
Th adviser is checking items on a list and processing lots of students. He doesn’t know your son, his full background, etc. That’s why having a personal Schreyer adviser is so useful to Schreyer students.
Yes, students drop during “drop/add” period and switch classes during the shorter “add” period. The dates should be entered in blinking red in his calendar.
Your son needs to talk to someone from Schreyer or from the math dept specifically regarding 230H: is it possible to take that class when one has only taken Calc BC and never done proof based math?
What classes is he taking beside 137H?
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He sent a note to SHC and waiting for their response. I will ask him now to request for math advisor. He did calculus BC AP in 11th grade and math/calculus syllabus was quite exhaustive in 11th and 12th. here are his courses.
CAS 137H - 3 credits
DS 200 - 4 credits
PHYS 213&214 - 4 credits
MATH 230H - 4 credits
PSU 16 - 1 credits
LA 197 - 1 credits
That’s A LOT indeed.
Phys 213-214 will be awesome for him but no walk in the park for instance 
Wait for the Schreyer response but what I would do is take DS 200 and leave 230/230H for the Spring. The Physics courses should keep him on his toes wrt Calc skills.
To complete his schedule I would take a 1.5 KINES class, or a 3-credit class counting for gen eds that he’s sure to do well in. Is SOC 003H offered for instance or some history seminar?
AFAIK the difference between 230 and 230H isn’t the same as for, say, Soc 3 and 3H (same for 140 and 140H, 141&141H). It’s not juste a smaller group with primary sources in addition to a textbook and a discussion format rather than a lecture. Unless something’s changed, it’s “normal” vs. “Proof based”. It’s like taking Spanish 1-3 and thinking you can do well in Intermediate Italian because both Spanish and Italian are Romance Languages.
The math professor would know whether a student coming from HS calculus can take the third level of proof based math.
If it’s NOT proof based, then all is well! 
This is a separate issue from ‘are students who took Calc BC in HS ready for 230’ - if the 141 final seems straightforward to the HS students and they feel comfortable with it, then it’s fine. They should not assume BC= 141 (because it’s not) but if they assessed what they knew in relation to 141 (ie., mastery of BC concepts, teacher who taught thoroughly -and perhaps more in-depth than- the basic BC curriculum…) and are confident, then it’s up to them.
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Just a question, and more a general question than Penn State math course specific - Since there has to be a first math course involving proofs, when is the time for that? Advice seems to be that you haven’t taken a course with proofs, so one with proofs will be too rigorous. You have to start somewhere.
However, I agree you shouldn’t jump into the deep end. This is said by a parent of a kid who (knowingly) made a bad decision on the first proof based course in college (had very limited exposure to proofs in HS classes). As a math major, she had to take at least two proof based courses, one an intro to theoretical math followed by an intro to theoretical 1-variable calculus. I imagine most colleges have similar requirements.
So, because she had somehow decided that she did not like proofs, and wanted to get this requirement over as quickly as possible, she took an intro to theory course that covered both of the above mentioned courses in one semester. That is a mistake.
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Afaik, future math majors or students for whom proofs would be important would start with 140H. Most students in that class have already taken AB or BC and use their knowledge to learn how to work through proofs (ie , they don’t learn calc AND proofs at the same time).
Otherwise it’s built into the curriculum but isn’t part of regular 140-141-230. Again, this is AFAIK, they could have changed syllabi recently so it’s best to ask the Undergraduate chair of the Math Dept (which class should you start with if you haven’t learned proof based math before and want to? Is 140H/141H/230H proof based? Etc).
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Jay - looking for another Honors class - another option might be to look into doing the Honors option for another class.
If you look on SHC website - it says there are three ways to get honors credit for classes. Honors course, Honors option (traditional), or Honors option (Essay).
I think my incoming SHC freshman may see if he can do Honors Option for Econ 102 - along with taking CAS 137H.
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Just thought I would share this here as I’ve been pretty active in this forum. My daughter story is featured in the beginning part of the article highlighting sticking with her Penn State decision after Syracuse relentlessly tried to poach her with multiple offers of large merit.
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Thank you for sharing. I had read the article - really tells you it is crazy out there! Some AO really blew yield.
Congrats to your daughter! ◡̈
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Really impressed your daughter didn’t budge and stuck by her initial choice🤗, although it had been her first choice for most of the year🐾 so I imagine she was a bit insulted or at least amused. Still, all they scholarship money could have been tempting.
I wonder if the tactic worked overall ..
The physics advisor asked my son to drop DS200 elective and asked him to take GE (or GS not sure i’m saying it right). My son is committed to ECON104 that’s non overlapping with any other non eberly courses. He would’ve loved to take some robotics or something to that effect, but it’s overlapping. other option was psycology and he thinks ECON is more useful to him now.
When my son met with Physics advisor (the 2nd time), he asked him about Math 230/141. the prof prodded him to get more info on what he has read so far in Math and after some Q/A okayed 230. without Math 230, in sophomore he cannot take 2 courses of physics (i dont know which ones) and was given option to do it now or in spring.
My impression is that Math 230 OR DS200 is best during the first semester.
A first semester balanced Eberly schedule would have 137H, a gen ed (art, humanities, social science), and 2-major related courses + “intro to college&careers” seminar (it’ll seem easy& obvious to your son- that’s the point: do whatever you’re asked to do and you’ll get an A, the only easy A in your college career, so don’t sneer and enjoy 
- it’s there to provide a cushion in case something goes wrong first semester. And still some kids sneer and don’t do the work 
). Second semester 138H, another gen ed or 2, and 2-3 major-related courses - at that point he can go for 16, 17, perhaps even 18 credits.
Has he been able to talk to someone about 230 vs 230H (whether the 230H is proof- based and can be jumped into from BC, as opposed to 230 which he has established is the right placement for him)?
See if there’s an honors section of any Gen Ed. This will guarantee a smaller group and the best professors. Penn State has lots of experts, why not take advantage of their expertise to learn about a specific subject?
I can see honors sections for courses such as… ANTHR 45Q: Anthropology/global cultural diversity, honors; LHR100 003H: Exploring work and employment; CAMS44H: Mythology, Egypt&Near East; SOC 005H: Social problems; GEOG2N- 10H: Apocalyptic geography, how can we prevent the end of the world? ; HIST 122: History of Science; RLST12N: Lands of the Bible..
Econ 104H may be offered next semester and he’d have priority registration.
CAS 137H - 3 credits (one of the non STEM honor was a requirement according to advisor and this course was available. i think this is english?)
ECON 104 - 3 credits. (replacing DS200 as per advisor since GE is a requirement). either honor verson of 102/104 were conflicting with physics or something else and ECON104 few seats were available and advisor was ok.
PHYS 213&214 - 4 credits
MATH 230H - 4 credits (Advisor asked my son to take 230H; as honor STEM course. sorry it was a typo that i mentioned 230)
PSU 16 - 1 credits
LA 197 - 1 credits
This becomes 14 credits in essence (PSU/LA are 1 credit lectures or seminars and Advisor mentioned that there wont be an exam or something to that effect and can manage this). Within 2 classes, I asked my son to drop or change subjects (if possible) if he finds out that this overwhelms him.
I know the adviser required 230H but unless the adviser is in Schreyer he may think this is just the same as the honors version of any other class)fewer students, more in depth). And unless things have changed, which they may have so it is indispensible to check, the honors version of 140,141,and 230 is NOT the same because it is proof based. If your son loves math concepts he would love proof based math but it’s a very specific way of doing math which is not what most students do and you can’t just jump into it.
^ this needs to be checked ASAP either with the math undergraduate chair or the professor who teaches 230H.
Since he can take 104H in the Spring and can’t now, he should save it for then. He will need to take 2 social science classes, including one that’s interdisciplinary or has an international focus (like the Anthropology 45Q class or the Myths class) as well as one art class and 2 humanities classes. This is general education, to be a well-informed citizen who can analyze, read, write, etc., on addition to being a specialist in his main subject (major).
137-138 are the foundational classes all Schreyer students take.
LA197&PSU16 are the “intro to college and careers” workshops id mentioned earlier - the “don’t sneer wt the easy A” classes.
I’ll suggest to him to take 230 only. He sent a note out to Math and waiting for response. Seems like 230 is also full when he last checked. They asked him to take 1 non stem (GE) honors and 1 Stem honors. I don’t know if that’s the rule. I did rather have him take econ 102/104 honors version and do 230 instead of 230H (like you suggest or how others honor students did). Yes he’s scrambling to get some help. Worst case I’ll ask him to waitlist for 230 and see if he can drop 230H (if tool doesn’t allow now, he can do so after first class and hopefully it allows then).
Related question. Would you know if there is a requirement to chose one stem and non stem major honor classes for SHC?
He needs to take at least 4 Honors courses freshman year, and could take more if they match interests or requirements, or have an especially good professor.
They do not need to be 1STEM/1non STEM each semester but it’s a good idea to take the pre-reqs for one’s major as well as stack up gen eds early on, so that junior/senior years can be filled with interesting specialty courses, research&thesis, and sometimes that one Gen Ed that is so in-demand only seniors can register for it.
All Schreyer students knock out 2 essential Gen Eds with 137-138. These two courses also become classes all other professors and courses will assume we’re successfully completed. Students only need to find 2-3 more honors courses for that first year, many of which may also fulfill other requirements.
Junior year he will have 202C (Writing in the sciences) and if he managed well he should only have “fun” Gen Eds (the kind you realize as a senior “last chance to learn about what!”) to balance his schedule after that.
To get back to 230H, if it’s not proof based (or is appropriate for someone who hasn’t studied proof based math before), he’s fine but otherwise would have to take the regular 230, which is hard enough - and thus his schedule would be upended again.
Wrt the 230 section, he can very politely introduce himself to the professor (rising freshman, Schreyer, potential physics and/or math major), explain he’s talked with Pr.X who conducted an oral interview to ascertain his preparedness, thus concluding he was, but by the time the assessment had been made the class was full. Would the professor consider adding him?
Thanks for the note. My son was able to connect with Math advisor as well and they exchanged multiple emails and Math advisor asked him based on my sons course work in 12th grade (more than AP calculus BC) to take 230h. He provided differences between 230 and h-version. It will be more application based and deeper than 230. Since he’s physics major, 230h helps better than 230 since they chose physics examples for application testing. I reviewed James Stewart 8th ed, I think chapter 16 starting stokes theorem can be overwhelming for any freshman let alone in first semester( I still remember some of it). I still think 230 would be better but my son wouldn’t listen anymore and I left it at that. I suggested to talk to Schreyers advisor after joining classes and if he feels 230’would be better, he can switch or drop out or Audit. He left multiple tier 1 schools for SHC experience and very excited to attend and didn’t want my input. Well that’s that and appreciate all your input @MYOS1634
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If the math adviser okays it, then it’s fine. 
Schreyer is a GREAT honors college so I hope he’ll really enjoy his first semester and next semester he’ll be able to take more classes
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